BetterThanBlank: Apple Supports No on Prop 8 - betterthanblank
Guest
· 1 year ago
Amen Alex. My heart breaks everyday when I hear about all my son's friends who feel abandoned and rejected by the church. Prop 8 comes across as another rejection to them. We as christians need to spend more money and time sharing God's love with them and reaching out to them. I am disgusted at all the time and money that is spent on alienating them instead...At least that is how they see it. My son tries to share his faith and God's love and all they can see is big nasty christians shaming them and rejecting them again..
bobby
· 1 year ago
I've been pretty torn on the prop for a while. Both sides have a case from my point of view. The church because the reality is what it is from God's perspective, and gay marriage is wrong. However, so is marriage between two people who are not devoted to Christ for that matter. It's more of a religion issue than a state issue I think at times.
However, I do have a question about something you mentioned about your friend. You see, one of the things I have understood is that civil unions, which are currently legal, share all of the legal benefits of marriage. If that is so, it sounds like your friends could have made that step and he should receive some sort of benefit. So my question is, did they choose not to enter into civil union, or is what I have heard incorrect?
heather
· 1 year ago
This whole prop 8 has been baffling me. I sometimes feel so far removed from "church" with my beliefs. I think that if gay people already have the same civil rights as heterosexual married couple in California why should I care if they are labeled "married". Is it the governments or a certain group of peoples place to instill moral conviction into my children or family? Also, the way people supporting prop 8 make it sound like if its not passed then the school is going to teach my child to be gay is a little crazy. This happened in Massachusets. Children cannot be forced, against the will of their parents, to be taught anything about health and family issues. California law prohibits it. Teaching my children to not hate or judge other groups of people is my job. Guiding my children into relationship with Christ is my job. Teaching them to go the bible for their moral convictions is my job. Another note, people supporting prop 8 have raised over 25 million and people opposing it have raised over 15million....Personally I feel that money could of been used so differantly, To actually help people. To feed them, to give them shelter.....I am probably a hippie at heart..Ps..I love that you talk about "sticky subjects" Its enlightening!!
James McLean
· 1 year ago
ok, i suppose the question should be, who created the institute of marriage? did God create it or did the American government? i believe God did in Genesis, he was the one who said that it was bad for man to be alone. Marriage is a picture of the covenant between Jesus and his bride (the Church), its all over the Bible. Marriage is still marriage, regardless of what the government says. It is the Church's job to teach,encourage, exemplify Biblical Marriage not the governments! God knows who is really married and who isn't, he designed marriage. So what is the best way for Christians to fight this whole issue? 1. Model an Ephesians 5:22-23 Biblical Christlike Marriage. 2. Teach about Biblical Marriage and the Biblical Manhood and Womanhood in your Churches, if your church doesn't do this then find one that does. 3. Love gay people, you are commanded to. We can't forget, we are Christians first and Americans second.
Once something is a law it's pretty hard to "undo" - think of the position a pastor would be in if a gay couple came to him and said we want you to marry us - and, in good conscience, he couldn't do that. Could he be sued? Has anyone seen some of the Kindergarten curriculum in our public schools? Books like "Heather Has Two Mommies." If we don't think this will affect our children we are fooling ourselves - do we not teach our children to obey the law? And the law will say it's OK - God has commanded us that his law comes first. Food for thought. This doesn't mean that we should be unkind to homosexuals however Scripture clearly tells us how to deal with folks with any UNREPENTENT sin - my sin of gossip or being unkind, for example, is no more acceptable than homosexuality. The difference is that I recognize it as such and ask forgiveness (most of the time and when I don't the Spirit is there to remind me!)
This proposition is asking us to condone and accept as law something that goes against God's law. Not to mention it is unnecessary - they already have all the legal rights as domestic partners in the state of California. Asking us to recognize it as marriage is a slap in the face of God, who instituted that sacrament.
ok big OOPS on the scripture reference. It is supposed to say Ephesians 5:22-33. Yikes! That looks bad! I am more concerned that the Men love their wives like Christ loves the Church because this makes 5:22-23 work a lot better. ok enough said.
hmmmm thats a sticky one... on one end I do not feel as though it is my duty to subjugate moral rule or biblical mandates upon peoples unalienable rights and freedom granted by the laws of the land. But on the other side I know that is not the intended order or purpose that God had created in the beginning. So therefore it is automatically wrong/perverse/sinful. On both ends of the spectrum there have been numerous atrocious acts. Thats scary to me. Our inability to be objective about serious issues. As far as the church's involvement, the conversation/push should be done more on a grassroots level as opposed to meeting up at the voting polls and flex our muscles/will/reign.
I too have close friends that are homosexuals, I feel they deserve every basic human right that I am able to live out, and I don't believe that puts my faith into question. I recognize that our world is spinning in a different cycle and my goal is not to reroute the cycle but to be a light in and amongst it. I Still have alot to digest with this one....
Roma - I totally hear your heart! I think Heather brought up a great point on the MILLIONS of dollars raised in the name of legislation... I wonder how much better that money could be spent. ESPECIALLY since most of it was probably on advertisements, which will be gone after November 4th.
Bobby - I don't know the exact details of the arrangement, and to be honest I don't know the laws surrounding civil union - I better get busy learning...
Heather - I already mentioned you above, but you also bring up another great point and that is that the responsibility lies with parents to bring up their kids, to show them right & wrong, teach them what the real world is like... And yes you are a true hippie at heart, and that's not such a bad thing.
James - I love how you are looking at this. I wish it was so cut and dry for me. I'm still in process...
Mom - First off, awesome to have you commenting on the ol blog. For all of you who don't know my mom, she's quite web 2.0! I think you do bring up some good points that have to be considered. Legal ramifications of legalizing gay marriage, workplace ethics, non-discriminatory acts - if you're a church you should be safe, but what about a non-profit that has Christian values? Would they be forced to hire people who don't hold their values? Laws...
Peter - as always, you seem to BRING IT. America is the place where human rights are supposed to be highly valued, human rights... no other qualifications. Be a human = life, liberty, pursuit of happiness... Now I'm just talking crazy talk...
Thanks everyone for a good conversation - keep it going!
Louisa
· 1 year ago
"Go into all the world and preach the gospel" The gospel is truth therefore gay marriage is wrong. I believe nations have been held accountable in past biblical times for allowing idoltry, immorality etc.. Please vote for what is right in the eyes of the Lord not in mans eyes. I feel like I could go on and on a this subject but please just read what Barbra said. That was spot on. Why does the Church need to adopt the unborn, help out financially those who lose a gay partner etc... I am not saying turn our back on those who sin, family members, or the needy or anyone Christ calls us to help, I'm just saying if you choose the life outside of Gods will perhaps you will have to deal with the consaquences. And believe me been there done that and try to avoid it like the plague now. I pray all who read this know that Christ is my King I love him and I pray holy Spirit truth would penetrate our hearts.
Louisa
· 1 year ago
Sorry I saw an error I did not mean to say the unborn meant unwanted. And again I know we are not to turn our backs we are to do as Christ calls and help those in need.
heather
· 1 year ago
I thought the gospel means the "good news of the kingdom of God" I might be wrong... Doesn't gospel literally mean "good news" Louisa..I miss you!!! I am glad your husband is better. I have been praying for him.
Louisa
· 1 year ago
Hi Heather, My husband is a miracle! Thank you so much! Please pray for Michael my friends son. She called me her son had an accident yesterday is in the same hospital Paul was on a ventilator like Paul etc... Very surreal for me. I am very aware of who are healer is and find it fascinating that I am in the midst of such trauma yet feel such peace because Jesus is so comforting! You are probably correct "good news" at the same time it is the gospel of truth ( to me anyway ). I would Love it if you went to The Call with me Nov.1 I truly believe you would be blessed and be a blessin. Let me know.
Roma Stromberg
· 1 year ago
My argument was not about God's intention for marriage. I am voting No on 8 simply because God Commands us to love one another and the propaganda for Proposition 8 is not loving. It is hurtful and alienating. I realize this is difficult for chrisitan people, especially those who do not have close gay family members, to understand, but the commercials and several of the other mediums have been degrading, shaming and alienating. I wonder why, considering the mostly christian backing behind Prop 8, why the message couldn't have been presented with love, even in a manner that is reaching out, much like of the many pro-birth health clinics that give young woman an alternative to abortion. God commanded us to love one another. I believe that comes before his commandment to make laws...hmmm....was that a commandment?
Louisa
· 1 year ago
God does not condon the gay life style any more than he would condon a life style of adultrey or stealing etc... I know God is a lover and wants his children to be lovers! Please do not confuse all of His childrens love to be less understanding or less loving simply because they don't have gay realitives. I have many family members who have lived certain areas of there life outside of Gods will while it is not our place to judge them, un holy human compassion and support of there lifesyles is wrong too. I did not come up with idea of making laws nor did you, yet we find ourselves voting anyway. It's just my conviction to vote according to Gods word. I pray Christ will reveal to each us His will come election day myself included. May our Savior bless all who read this with His supreme love and fill you each with Holy Spirit wisdom and the power to operate in it, myself included.
Kim B
· 1 year ago
Hi Alex! (And everyone else...) I don't think a church is going to be "safe" if this prop passes by a long shot...in fact, my understanding is that some factions of the gay community have an agenda to begin asking pastors of various churches to marry them, which will pave the way for lawsuits brought on by the ACLU, etc., which would put our status as a non-profit in jeopardy. One of the things we were advised when we contacted a Christian law group(as a church) is to put some things into our bylaws that protect us from this...things such as people needing to have attended the church for a minimum amount of time before the pastor will consider marrying them, etc. I believe we will see this begin to happen very soon. One more thing, didn't the governor promise to veto prop 8 if it passes?
Guest
· 1 year ago
Let's be a dangerous church and reach out to all sinners and love them and trust God and obey him. I think personal contact with people works much better than trying to pass laws to control them.
Roma Stromberg
· 1 year ago
I am protesting the propaganda and the means taken to get this proposition passed.
I am praying in the name of Jesus against every spirit that would try to confuse the minds of believers and non believers by using the word love to promote sin. And I ask you Jesus to open the eyes of the blind and bring to the light those who come looking like a sheep, but are really a wolf! I praise the name of Jesus and his judgements are true!
Roma Stromberg
· 1 year ago
AMEN
Barbara AKA Alex's Mom
· 1 year ago
OK - so last night one of the "tolerant" NO on 8 folks stole our Yes on 8 banner - so who's being intolerant? My best friend lives in Modesto and she told me yesterday that they had a story about a local teacher who took a first grade class on a field trip to "city hall" - actually it ended up being her "wedding" to her lesbian lover. Now think about how you'd feel if your little first grader got that lesson.......and how many heterosexuals do you know would expect their kids to miss school to attend their wedding? Wow - it's getting scary!
Roma Stromberg
· 1 year ago
Barbara. There is alot of inappropriate behavoir and deception going on by both parties. It breaks my heart. I posted a link above regarding the "wedding" field trip. Obviously, many many people feel very strongly about this issue....about 65 million dollars strong now.
Barbara AKA Alex's Mom
· 1 year ago
Whether the parents agreed or not wasn't the point. The point was that children missed school for a trip with questionable value - I certainly wouldn't allow my child to miss school to attend a teacher's wedding, gay or straight. I think it was exploitive to use that wedding in that way. If we are to believe that the public school system will not use this as an opportunity to teach the acceptability of homosexuality to kids, with or without permission, we are kidding ourselves. If that were the case then why would the California Teachers Association donate a million dollars to defeat the proposition. If it didn't affect education they wouldn't care - ask a Christian teacher what's in the current curriculum. One teacher in our church has already mentioned that liberal teachers in her school are already discussing how they can fit this into the classroom and she teaches elementary school.
I have no problem loving any sinner - they come through the door at our church every Sunday and I am one of the biggest. The difference being I am seeking forgiveness and wanting to grow in my walk and spend more time in the Word. In John 8 Jesus intervened in the stoning of a woman caught in adultery - he showed compassion and saved her life but his words to her were "Go now and leave your life of sin." She did not ask Him to condone her lifestyle and change the laws of the land to accomodate her desire to live in a way contrary to God's law. Marriage was instituted by God before it became a legal contract and even now homosexuals are granted civil unions which give them the rights they desire - large companies grant them status as domestic partners and no one can discriminate against them any more than they could any other minority.
heather
· 1 year ago
We should all sit down and argue about circumcision next....will it keep us out of heaven.....This whole thing makes my heart hurt. I bet Satan is loving how distracted we all are. I say instead of a day of fasting for, or against, prop 8 we should do a day of fasting to praise God for his amazing grace.
Lindah
· 1 year ago
I am a born again Christian and I also find this whole Prop.8 thing confusing. Didn't the pilgrims and others come to this country for freedom. Religious and other! I believe God instituted Marriage between one Man and one Woman. But.... I also believe we have freedom of choice. Shouldn't the Gays be allowed that freedom of choice. I have 5 children. If any of them witnessed a gay marriage or are read books I find inapproiate I think It would open a discussion.. an opportunity to instruct your children in what you believe. I 100% believe the Bible but I 100% dont believe the Government has the right to tell people they can or cannot marry based on their sexual preferences. Im still deciding Yes or No on 8. I am looking for more Christian input. I really like what Heather has had to say. God is gracious. Lets Love everyone to Christ. Spend money on feeding the hungry or stopping Child trafficking not on campaigns!
Rob J
· 1 year ago
Whoa...here is some input on Prop 8: I strongly encourage you to consider voting yes for proposition 8.
The California civil code already guarantees full rights for homosexual civil unions; proposition 8 does not take away those rights.
However, if proposition 8 is NOT passed, our view and right to teach marriage as being the union between one man and one woman WILL be taken away.
The consequences of this would be very ugly and far reaching. Furthermore, the process by which California has now arrived at actually granting homosexual marriage licenses is a travesty – a perversion of the democratic process where imperial judges are overriding the ‘consent of the governed’ and imperiling our culture.
I encourage you to watch this video which explains some of the reasons for a ‘yes on 8’ vote in a pretty fair way.
I believe that marriage is a covenant between two people and God. Marriage should be santioned and implemented by the God and then the church not the government. By making it part of our constitution, we make it available to everyone. I believe that the government should santion and implement civil contracts.
The other night I had a non-christian ask me why the christians don't write a proposition making common-law marriage illegal because it is adultery and adultery is actually one of the ten comandments. Why do we tolerate a law that gives people who live together and intentionally not marry, the same rights as married people, i.e. they can file their taxes jointly? If we are going to get into the business of making laws, we need to be biblically consistent.
Roma Stromberg
· 1 year ago
Interesting. Check out the following from California Education Code 51933.
Instruction shall be appropriate for students of all genders, sexual orientations, and ethnic and cultural backgrounds, and it shall be accessible for English language learner students and students with disabilities. Instruction shall encourage communication between students and their families and shall teach respect for marriage and committed relationships.
alex
· 1 year ago
I just wanted to say THANK YOU for everyone who's been commenting on this very powerful subject. Thanks for being respectful, and I hope no matter what happens tomorrow - we'll all learn to love more and more like Christ.
Bill
· 1 year ago
The loud call for opponents of Prop. 8 to “get over it and accept the will of the people” is embarrassing for teachers of social studies and American government in California public and private schools. Clearly, at least 52% of California voters missed the lesson where we learned about how our system of government was designed with a network of political checks and balances to prevent what is called the “tyranny of the majority,” to ensure that our system of government ultimately protects the rights of minorities against what any given majority (religious in the case of Prop. 8) might care to legislate into law.
Perhaps you also missed the news that a consortium of civil rights groups have filed suit against Prop. 8 (story at: http://equaljusticesociety.org/prop8/). They know that any legislation that curtails civil rights for one group that is allowed to stand, regardless of how they may personally feel about that minority, opens the door as precedent to legislate against the rights of another. Perhaps there’s another group out there who doesn’t like having Native American tribes own all those casinos, or business signs in only Spanish, Korean or Farsi, and perhaps we should do something about those obnoxiously ornate Mormon temples all over the place. And what about those Knights of Columbus? Does anyone doubt their intimate connection to the Roman Catholic Church? Perhaps a majority of us should pass a law so that the entire American Roman Catholic church is taxed as a private corporation consequent to the political activity of their Blessed Knights. Perhaps those of you who hate one minority and would deprive them of civil rights might reconsider your political stand (not your religious beliefs) if you consider the precedent being set by Proposition 8. It may be your very beliefs that become the next target for oppression despite your personal belief in their universality.
Whether you believe the Earth is flat, that Adam walked with dinosaurs, that Shiva had six arms, that crystals cure cancer, that fairies live in willows, that Jesus saves you from your sins, or that people choose their sexual identity, your freedom is protected by that Constitution you are trying to change. God save you from yourself.
All Comments
However, I do have a question about something you mentioned about your friend. You see, one of the things I have understood is that civil unions, which are currently legal, share all of the legal benefits of marriage. If that is so, it sounds like your friends could have made that step and he should receive some sort of benefit. So my question is, did they choose not to enter into civil union, or is what I have heard incorrect?
i believe God did in Genesis, he was the one who said that it was bad for man to be alone. Marriage is a picture of the covenant between Jesus and his bride (the Church), its all over the Bible. Marriage is still marriage, regardless of what the government says. It is the Church's job to teach,encourage, exemplify Biblical Marriage not the governments!
God knows who is really married and who isn't, he designed marriage.
So what is the best way for Christians to fight this whole issue?
1. Model an Ephesians 5:22-23 Biblical Christlike Marriage.
2. Teach about Biblical Marriage and the Biblical Manhood and Womanhood in your Churches, if your church doesn't do this then find one that does.
3. Love gay people, you are commanded to.
We can't forget, we are Christians first and Americans second.
<abbr>James McLeans last blog post..Something is Wrong</abbr>
This proposition is asking us to condone and accept as law something that goes against God's law. Not to mention it is unnecessary - they already have all the legal rights as domestic partners in the state of California. Asking us to recognize it as marriage is a slap in the face of God, who instituted that sacrament.
<abbr>James McLeans last blog post..Something is Wrong</abbr>
On both ends of the spectrum there have been numerous atrocious acts. Thats scary to me. Our inability to be objective about serious issues.
As far as the church's involvement, the conversation/push should be done more on a grassroots level as opposed to meeting up at the voting polls and flex our muscles/will/reign.
I too have close friends that are homosexuals, I feel they deserve every basic human right that I am able to live out, and I don't believe that puts my faith into question. I recognize that our world is spinning in a different cycle and my goal is not to reroute the cycle but to be a light in and amongst it.
I Still have alot to digest with this one....
God have mercy!
<abbr>Peters last blog post..Books I’m Reading…</abbr>
<abbr>Chris Stouts last blog post..Who are you Voting For?</abbr>
Bobby - I don't know the exact details of the arrangement, and to be honest I don't know the laws surrounding civil union - I better get busy learning...
Heather - I already mentioned you above, but you also bring up another great point and that is that the responsibility lies with parents to bring up their kids, to show them right & wrong, teach them what the real world is like... And yes you are a true hippie at heart, and that's not such a bad thing.
James - I love how you are looking at this. I wish it was so cut and dry for me. I'm still in process...
Mom - First off, awesome to have you commenting on the ol blog. For all of you who don't know my mom, she's quite web 2.0! I think you do bring up some good points that have to be considered. Legal ramifications of legalizing gay marriage, workplace ethics, non-discriminatory acts - if you're a church you should be safe, but what about a non-profit that has Christian values? Would they be forced to hire people who don't hold their values? Laws...
Peter - as always, you seem to BRING IT. America is the place where human rights are supposed to be highly valued, human rights... no other qualifications. Be a human = life, liberty, pursuit of happiness... Now I'm just talking crazy talk...
Thanks everyone for a good conversation - keep it going!
Louisa..I miss you!!! I am glad your husband is better. I have been praying for him.
My husband is a miracle! Thank you so much! Please pray for Michael my friends son. She called me her son had an accident yesterday is in the same hospital Paul was on a ventilator like Paul etc... Very surreal for me. I am very aware of who are healer is and find it fascinating that I am in the midst of such trauma yet feel such peace because Jesus is so comforting!
You are probably correct "good news" at the same time it is the gospel of truth ( to me anyway ).
I would Love it if you went to The Call with me Nov.1 I truly believe you would be blessed and be a blessin. Let me know.
May our Savior bless all who read this with His supreme love and fill you each with Holy Spirit wisdom and the power to operate in it, myself included.
I don't think a church is going to be "safe" if this prop passes by a long shot...in fact, my understanding is that some factions of the gay community have an agenda to begin asking pastors of various churches to marry them, which will pave the way for lawsuits brought on by the ACLU, etc., which would put our status as a non-profit in jeopardy. One of the things we were advised when we contacted a Christian law group(as a church) is to put some things into our bylaws that protect us from this...things such as people needing to have attended the church for a minimum amount of time before the pastor will consider marrying them, etc. I believe we will see this begin to happen very soon.
One more thing, didn't the governor promise to veto prop 8 if it passes?
I praise the name of Jesus and his judgements are true!
I have no problem loving any sinner - they come through the door at our church every Sunday and I am one of the biggest. The difference being I am seeking forgiveness and wanting to grow in my walk and spend more time in the Word. In John 8 Jesus intervened in the stoning of a woman caught in adultery - he showed compassion and saved her life but his words to her were "Go now and leave your life of sin." She did not ask Him to condone her lifestyle and change the laws of the land to accomodate her desire to live in a way contrary to God's law. Marriage was instituted by God before it became a legal contract and even now homosexuals are granted civil unions which give them the rights they desire - large companies grant them status as domestic partners and no one can discriminate against them any more than they could any other minority.
I strongly encourage you to consider voting yes for proposition 8.
The California civil code already guarantees full rights for homosexual civil unions; proposition 8 does not take away those rights.
However, if proposition 8 is NOT passed, our view and right to teach marriage as being the union between one man and one woman WILL be taken away.
The consequences of this would be very ugly and far reaching. Furthermore, the process by which California has now arrived at actually granting homosexual marriage licenses is a travesty – a perversion of the democratic process where imperial judges are overriding the ‘consent of the governed’ and imperiling our culture.
I encourage you to watch this video which explains some of the reasons for a ‘yes on 8’ vote in a pretty fair way.
I also encourage you to check out the http://www.protectmarriage.com/ website for further info.
My strongest encouragement to you is to vote YES on Prop 8. Protect marriage.
peace out...
<abbr>Rob Js last blog post..Fall Back to Standard Time - Tonight!</abbr>
The other night I had a non-christian ask me why the christians don't write a proposition making common-law marriage illegal because it is adultery and adultery is actually one of the ten comandments. Why do we tolerate a law that gives people who live together and intentionally not marry, the same rights as married people, i.e. they can file their taxes jointly? If we are going to get into the business of making laws, we need to be biblically consistent.
Instruction shall be appropriate for students of all genders, sexual orientations, and ethnic and cultural backgrounds, and it shall be accessible for English language learner students and students with disabilities. Instruction shall encourage communication between students and their families and shall teach respect for marriage and committed relationships.
Perhaps you also missed the news that a consortium of civil rights groups have filed suit against Prop. 8 (story at: http://equaljusticesociety.org/prop8/). They know that any legislation that curtails civil rights for one group that is allowed to stand, regardless of how they may personally feel about that minority, opens the door as precedent to legislate against the rights of another. Perhaps there’s another group out there who doesn’t like having Native American tribes own all those casinos, or business signs in only Spanish, Korean or Farsi, and perhaps we should do something about those obnoxiously ornate Mormon temples all over the place. And what about those Knights of Columbus? Does anyone doubt their intimate connection to the Roman Catholic Church? Perhaps a majority of us should pass a law so that the entire American Roman Catholic church is taxed as a private corporation consequent to the political activity of their Blessed Knights. Perhaps those of you who hate one minority and would deprive them of civil rights might reconsider your political stand (not your religious beliefs) if you consider the precedent being set by Proposition 8. It may be your very beliefs that become the next target for oppression despite your personal belief in their universality.
Whether you believe the Earth is flat, that Adam walked with dinosaurs, that Shiva had six arms, that crystals cure cancer, that fairies live in willows, that Jesus saves you from your sins, or that people choose their sexual identity, your freedom is protected by that Constitution you are trying to change. God save you from yourself.